Welcome to the Health and Society podcast. My name is Sinead and I'm here to delve into the many health related matters Ireland is facing today. I've lots of different guests coming on over the next few weeks, so stick the kettle on, kick your feet back and enjoy today's podcast episode. With Mental Health Awareness Week coming up from the 13th to the 19th of May, I've decided to dedicate the next two episodes towards mental health. Today we're going to listen to a conversation I had a while back with a senior OT from DCU. Her name is Susan. We were talking about being neurodivergent and experiences of mental health while in third level education. Susan's actually, she was my OT while I was in DCU and I don't re I don't think she realizes how much she actually helped me. Um, I've never really said this to her but although I know her meetings were for to help me with planning an organisation, she actually created an amazing space for me to be able to express my overwhelm. So I'd be quite overwhelmed while I was in college and I was struggling with my mental health too. Um, she provided that space for me to be able to kind of unpack a lot of what I was experiencing in order for me to actually do my college work then. And I didn't know whether I wanted to say this or not. But I've decided to be vulnerable and share this and there was times where I was having thoughts around suicide as well. Um, I was in such a dark place, you know. And because the structures that are set up in general, like in institutions, they're designed for neurotypical people. They're not designed for people with ADHD. So it just makes it that bit harder. So I really felt like my time in college, it really affected my mental health. And although I never told Susan I was experiencing suicidal thoughts, she was just there. She was, I was just really grateful to have that space to go to offload for her to be empathetic and understanding. I am just so thrilled to have her on today to share her with all of you, her amazingness. I hope you enjoy today's episode. Thanks so much for having me here. I'm so glad to have this conversation with you. While you were studying in third level education, what was your own personal experience of mental health?

Susan: 2:18

Yeah, I love that you've asked this actually. Um, I wasn't expecting it, but I love it. It's so interesting, when I did my first undergraduate degree, all those years ago, um, in So I started college in 99, 1999, and there was no discussion of mental health. There was no, um, pastoral care for want of a better word. Um, I mean, I was in Trinity, technically they had a counseling service. At that time, I think, but there was, you were just an anonymous number or an anonymous person, um, and, and the course I did, I was in a huge class, you know, four or 500 people, every class. And, um, I didn't have the language. None of us had the language, but we knew people who were unwell. I had family members, but also people in our class who were unwell. And a lot of times they just disappeared. You know, they just dropped out of college or, um, you know, You know, yeah, dropped out and we never, you know, we obviously heard from them again, but they, you know, they weren't able to re engage with stuff. And I think that like looking back, I see how much poor mental health there was. Uh, in my peer group, in my, you know, in my year of college, in my, in that year of college. And then I went back to college to occupational therapy and then I began to have the language. Obviously I was doing a lot of mental health, I was doing psychology. So I began to have the language and things had started to change, even though that would have only been eight years from when I first started my first degree. And I think in my first degree, I was very focused on social justice more so than if you like mental health, you know, I did that's how I got into occupational therapy. I, I had 11 hours of classes a week and I spent all of the rest of the time doing Vincent de Paul, you know, um, coaching and, you know, uh, tutoring inner city kids. And that was kind of my focus, more the community, social justice. Whereas when I went on to do occupational therapy, it was more obviously about mental health, wellness, physical health, wellbeing, that kind of thing. And I began to see how, you know, even how college affected people and the language for mental health for my age group or for young and, and it was begunning, begunning to be. Yes. That time was the beginning to be talked about just generally, you know, the newspaper on TV, that kind of thing. So there was more of a language for it then, but I think we're only getting to grips with it now, to be honest.

Sinéad: 4:44

Yeah, definitely. And like for, same as myself, really, like when I was in college, only recently, but like when I started my degree, let's say there was a lot of people that dropped out. And although there was a lot of supports there, it's just, it's like so hard, it really does affect your mental health. I know with someone I know now that I have ADHD that having to kind of concentrate all day that really affect that very, that really affected my mental health definitely. And I was really grateful to have the supports that I had. I know that, you know, you, you supported me in college as well, and that was brilliant, and I don't know what I would've done. without having those supports there. So I can only imagine what it was like with no supports at all.

Susan: 5:22

Absolutely. So if you think back 20 years ago, let's say when I was first in college, like, I mean, I was aware of something called autism and ADHD at that time, but the idea that maybe it was common and there would have been not hundreds of people, I suppose, in my class, but yeah, probably a hundred people in my class who would have been either dyslexic, autistic, ADHD, whatever, who didn't know.

Sinéad: 5:42

Yeah,

Susan: 5:43

that they were any of those things who didn't have the support, who didn't know why they couldn't do things the same as everyone else, and myself included.

Sinéad: 5:50

Yeah, and why you're like, I didn't know why I had to drink so much coffee. I didn't know why I was drinking more, why I was eating more, why I was like, I was hyper fixated on college as well. I was like, why am I so fixated on this? And I've no room for any other aspect of my life because I had a hyper focus on it as well. Everyone else just seemed to be able to have a bit more balance when it came to it. And I just wasn't able to do that. And that really, that definitely affected my mental health. And I think that like even little things like, you know, We'd be given out sheets to read during class and then we'd all discuss afterwards and people would read it and then start talking and I wouldn't even be able to read the first two sentences. Obviously I can read but I can't read when I'm distracted, you know, so it was kind of like all these additional stressors of concentration affected my mental health as well then, you know, so.

Susan: 6:41

Absolutely, well it adds an extra layer of difficulty. That everyone else doesn't have.

Sinéad: 6:46

Yeah, oh yeah, definitely. It's great to have, kind of, the supports where you can have your recording. I had, like, my recording stuff glean. That was really, that was like a godsend. That was an absolute godsend. So there's that and then there's It's the services and supports that are available now, you know, yeah. So while you're working in third level education presently, have you noticed how third level education affects students mental health? And if so, why do you think that is?

Susan: 7:14

Yeah, again, I think that's a good question. I think that's not a question people are asking enough. Like the thing is, third level is, you know, and I've done two degrees and I've worked in it since then, basically.

Sinéad: 7:26

Um,

Susan: 7:26

but it's not user friendly and I don't, you know, that's not specific to one college or one country even, but they're set up as institutions. They're big institutions and piece of research I did way back in my first undergrad, that third level is a greedy institution. Like it'll take and it'll take and it'll take. And you actually get very little back with your degree at the end of it.

Sinéad: 7:47

Um,

Susan: 7:47

and because of that, They're not user friendly, like they're not student friendly really at the end of the day. No matter how much we try and people out there listening, believe it or not, we do try, like we do want them to be user friendly, but they're not at the end of the day. A lot of these places, you know, all over the world were built 200 years ago, 100 years ago, 50 years ago, whatever. So the buildings are not brilliant, you know, the sensory environment, the physical environment. You know, I remember again, going back to when I was first in college, I mean, there was no seating. I mean, there was literally no seating in the college. So, like, there was the cafe and that, but there was literally no chair or nothing.

Sinéad: 8:28

Oh my gosh. I thought you meant there was no seating in the classes.

Susan: 8:32

Well that would be kind of an avant garde kind of place.

Sinéad: 8:36

Everyone stood. Wait a minute. Wait, wait, wait. Everyone stood

Susan: 8:38

It might have been good in a way.

Sinéad: 8:39

It would have been better for me actually. Standing up yeah

Susan: 8:41

Yeah, just like a cattle mark kind of. But like, they, no, like, they just, it was like they didn't want anyone hanging around. Do you know what I mean? And it's, it's It's improved today again, like something that I love from COVID and this is true across all the colleges I've visited. It's like they introduced those outdoor picnic kind of tables and they have those kind of like gazebos, I don't know what you call it, kind of things for over them, you know, for the weather and they've kept the picnic tables and it's brilliant. I was out there the other day, it was a nice day, loads of people were sitting there. It was brilliant and it makes it, it sends the message to students, we would actually like you here.

Sinéad: 9:16

Exactly.

Susan: 9:17

I think that's the first thing to say. I think universities, colleges as a whole are not user friendly. And again, that's not to do with even mental health or physical health, whatever. They're just not super user friendly and it's really hard to change them over time. But the, yeah, the environment is the thing. Um, like I said, the physical environment, the sensory environment, you know, big classes, Lighting, the temperature, the, the smells, you know, the canteen is sort of big and dark.

Sinéad: 9:44

It is, yeah, and the overlights and it's like the ceilings are quite high.

Susan: 9:48

Yeah, like it's just.

Sinéad: 9:49

I never really thought of it like that.

Susan: 9:51

Like, you know, you notice, almost notice something new every day. That's not user friendly. And again, it's not intentional. You know, I think these places obviously are built as well as they can. But, you know, definitely looking at the new, um, like we're going to have example in DCU, we're going to have new accommodation, hopefully starting soon. And we've been consulted on that. So again, and it's not just about, Oh, well, is there, you know, wheelchair, you know, access or whatever, but like, how can we make these, the accommodation more user friendly, more accessible to the most number of people. So that's, that's the environment. But then the third thing I suppose is like, and this is like probably what I spend a lot of my time on, like I work solely with disabled students. But like a lot of the problems that they come to me, it's not to do with their disability. Do you know, it's to do with, well, I have five essays due the same day. Yes. And like for, with the best will in the world. Yeah. Do you know, so you're saying to an 18 year old, a 19 year old who now is not in school anymore, you know, they're having a great time. Just come back to me in seven weeks with five essays done. Away you go. So like they're not, I think that we could work a lot smarter with that like, you know, so that's another thing that affects people and exams as well. You know, again exams, there's a huge, I think

Sinéad: 11:00

Exams stress is just terrible. I'm so grateful that we didn't have.

Susan: 11:04

Yeah, like they just don't suit a lot of people and what do they really test other than memory?

Sinéad: 11:08

Yeah, you know. This is it.

Susan: 11:10

Um, so again, I just think like a lot of things don't make sense to me and again, maybe that's because I'm neurodivergent, but again, it's, it's kind of a, a justice issue. Like if you can understand things well, do you need to remember them well? You know, and a lot of my, let's say for example, coding students would say that to me, they're like, when I'm working in Facebook or Amazon or wherever I'm working, like, I'm not going to be like calling.

Sinéad: 11:30

Yeah.

Susan: 11:31

You know, code from memory or whatever.

Sinéad: 11:33

Exactly.

Susan: 11:33

You're obviously going to be looking it up or you're going to be asking people, you're working as part of a team or whatever. So exams are very, I think, unrepresentative of the real world.

Sinéad: 11:42

Cause it's like, memory isn't actually the skill you're supposed to be learning for the job.

Susan: 11:46

Exactly.

Sinéad: 11:47

So like, obviously it's good to remember things, but that's not the actual skill.

Susan: 11:50

Yeah. And. I suppose, so all of that contributes to impact on people's mental health, you know, like it's not just one thing, I think it's many things. And then when you look at students today, oh my God, like they're commuting, they're, um, carers, some of them single parents, some of them, you know, we've an increasing number of non traditional students in higher level. That's amazing. But again, are the resources there to support people?

Sinéad: 12:13

No, I don't think like they're better than they were before, but they're not fully there. I think some of it as well as the training with the lecturer is not that like, I have had some phenomenal lecturers and like, I do remember them, but there is some people that you're like, like they just, their teaching methods aren't for a diverse student, like for diverse students. So it's kind of like, this is my method of teaching. You need to learn it. In this way, and it's like, Oh God, but not everyone learns in that way. And not everyone showcases their learning in that way.

Susan: 12:44

Exactly. And I think that's such a great point. Like that idea of universal design, which we've talked about before, is like not the concept of universal design is not yet universal. And we need it to be, we, you know, we're always banging the drum here, certainly in UCD. And when I worked in Trinity, the same, we talked a lot about universal design. And it's the thing that occupational therapists are right. Yeah. Keen on and very, it's very important to us because again, certainly from our professional point of view, we know someone can become disabled at any time.

Sinéad: 13:13

Yeah.

Susan: 13:13

So I think there's an idea that like, Oh, we need facilities for those people over there, but you can become one of those people at any time. So when we think about designing any institution, we have to think about as much as we can to make it accessible to the most number of users and universities do struggle with that. And lecturers, we were giving some training to staff the other day and I said that, I said, you know, no offence, there was academics, like, and I said, no offence, but you're not taught how to teach, like.

Sinéad: 13:40

Mmm, yeah.

Susan: 13:41

And let alone are you taught how to teach diverse learners. And, you know, they were all nodding, like, um, frantically. And so I think that should be acknowledged. Like, as in, there are people who aren't great teachers, but they haven't been taught how to teach. teach either. So like, you know, it's a kind of a vicious cycle or whatever. Like they, they're in a position where they're a subject matter expert, but they haven't had training of any kind. Most of them in pedagogy or teaching or, um, differential learning, whatever they, uh, universal design, most of them haven't had any training. education in that. So I do have sympathy for that but then I do continuing professional development and I think other people should too.

Sinéad: 14:18

Yeah and I only found this out, I think it was through conversation with yourself last year, I was like, wait a minute, what? So wait a minute, because I was, remember I was doing that assignment because obviously I write about what I'm obsessed with and I did that assignment about um, inclusion and third level education and stuff like that and uh, I was thinking of all of these things that, you know, can be done and me and you had a conversation and you were saying well you know that the teachers aren't actually trying to be, the lecturers aren't trying to be teachers and I was like that's the start of it because it's kind of like similar to a person who has like all of these like has this specific skill and they write a book and they're not a writer. Like it doesn't mean the book is going to be good. Cause they don't have the writing skills. Like my daughter loves writing. She was like, she talks about how writing is an art and sometimes informational books could be better if the art of writing was there. The skill of art. So these people are brilliant and they have all this knowledge, but maybe they don't have that skill there because they weren't taught how to do the teaching part.

Susan: 15:17

Well, exactly. But if you think about. Primary school teachers and secondary school teachers, they both do a four year degree in how to teach.

Sinéad: 15:26

Yes, so it is a skill. I actually recently seen, um, it's in UCC, I think they're doing a degree or a master's, I think, in teaching lecturers how to teach, like,

Susan: 15:38

wow, amazing.

Sinéad: 15:39

And it's all about, I seen something about inclusion in it as well. So, it's around.

Susan: 15:43

I'll check that out.

Sinéad: 15:44

Yeah, do. I seen, I went, that's actually really interesting. If I ever wanted to have a future in teaching, I would have to do that.

Susan: 15:51

But I think that's the thing, like, from your point of view, your experience as a neurodivergent person, but also, you know, doing your Masters in Inclusion and everything, like, you now have the knowledge and experience about inclusion and about, you can't just, you know, throw something out there. You have to think about the different groups and all that. Whereas not everyone has had that experience or that insight and doesn't think that way yet.

Sinéad: 16:14

No. Yeah, that's it. And like, and I wouldn't have taught, like my going to college actually changed, like it changed my whole perspective of life. I knew I wanted to, Like do something new and I was interested in like maybe psychology or health and, but, and I know we all changed but I've drastically changed and like since coming to DCU, you know, and my perspective on things I never would have thought of inclusion. So why would you think, you wouldn't think of it unless you've like learned to, you know, so.

Susan: 16:42

Well, that's why we need our allies because there isn't enough people who have had experience of whatever it is, disability, racism, you know, homophobia, like we need everyone on board. Yeah. Or as many people as possible, um, to be allies. So the people who aren't a member of an underrepresented group to come along with us and promote, uh, equality.

Sinéad: 17:05

Yes, definitely. Can we talk about neuro, specifically neurodiversity and mental health? Yeah. So like, I know that it's, college is really hard for everyone, you know, neurotypical people and neurodiverse people. But I think from my, from my experience for someone, as someone with ADHD, I really felt like the structures that I was working in or in college that really affected my mental health because it didn't. Suit my ADHD, if you get me, what do you think?

Susan: 17:31

Absolutely. I think the big benefit to neurodivergent people, generally speaking, coming to college is that you can find your tribe, right? So you can find other people. Who, number one, have a similar interest, you know, if it's a specific topic or, you know, specific degree subject matter, but number two, that you can find other quirky people, um, like yourself who are into whatever it is, if it's the LGBT society, if it's gaming society, if it's, Whatever, can find other people that you, you fit in with and maybe you didn't have that in school. Where obviously some people aren't coming straight from school, but wherever you're coming from, you didn't, you didn't have that. And now you can, and I see it like every day, people that I work with who were bullied, let's say in school, didn't fit in, had to move school several times. And then they come here and they meet a friend. And then they're just set and they just blossom. So that's amazing. But on the flip side, um, definitely like the regular stressors that like we touched on, you know, you know, you're commuting and you have to work and your room is too hot. The lights are too bright. Those regular stressors for everyone are amplified for neurodivergent people. So the environment's too noisy. The environment's not noisy enough. Um, uh, as we said, the teaching, you know, some of it's,

Sinéad: 18:49

The classes are too long.

Susan: 18:51

The classes are too long.

Sinéad: 18:52

If anyone's listening, that's a lecture here. The classes are too long. Three hours is too long.

Susan: 18:57

And they're not stimulating enough. And, and, you know, they do this classic thing. Where they say, Oh, we'll, we won't take a break and we'll just keep going and we'll finish early, but they never finish early.

Sinéad: 19:08

No, they don't. They don't finish early. Anyone that, I mean, whatever, and they'll say things like, put your hand up if you want to, um, Take a break, or if you want to go through, we'll, like, so obviously people want to work through and I, it's kind of hard to, like, if I was in a bad humour, though, I would be like, I'm taking, we're taking a break. I'm sorry, this is happening, but not everyone has that.

Susan: 19:29

It makes them be singled out.

Sinéad: 19:31

This is it, yeah.

Susan: 19:33

Like, you're disrupting everyone else then if you want to take a break.

Sinéad: 19:35

You're other, you're other, because everyone else wants to ply through. But like, to be fair, you know, I don't think your brain can process that much information. Like, the point is learning.

Susan: 19:45

Right.

Sinéad: 19:46

At the end of the day. So, you know, I don't think you put that much information into it. I think there was one lecturer who did a really long class before. There's many of them, but she broke it up so good. She took us outside for one part of it and she did like a movement activity. Like it was just, She was just good at teaching methods, I think. And another part was like, we had to do a diagram of, so there was like a, like a drawing part, you know, and then there was a listening part and a conversation part. And that flew past, yeah, yeah. It was absolutely brilliant. Yeah. So what other ways?

Susan: 20:19

Well, yeah. So like, the thing is, as we know from the research that, uh, a lot of new, uh, A lot of neurodivergent people do also have co occurring depression and anxiety, for example. But what we think we know from the emerging research is it's not part of autism to have depression and anxiety. It's not part of ADHD to have depression and anxiety. But when you've always been a square peg trying to fit into a round hole that you can never fit into, it can have the consequence of, you know, Obviously causing people to develop depression, anxiety and other things. And so when you're here and there's so many things happening, some of them great and exciting, but some of them really stressful, really hard. Like if you have anxiety and you're finding it hard to get on campus now, and you really might struggle. Like a lot of the people that I've worked with, they've learned. Or being told that their voices don't count.

Sinéad: 21:13

Yeah.

Susan: 21:13

That what they're saying isn't important, or nobody wants to hear it. Or they're wrong, and they're being too loud as usual, or whatever it is. And so, it's very hard for them sometimes to ask for the help as well.

Sinéad: 21:24

Yeah, self advocacy.

Susan: 21:25

Oh, it's really tough. Really tough when you've been essentially kind of gaslit all your life. That whatever you're doing, Right now is wrong.

Sinéad: 21:33

Yeah.

Susan: 21:34

Including what you're saying.

Sinéad: 21:35

Exactly.

Susan: 21:36

So it's very hard then to advocate for yourself and say, no, I need help, or this, what you're doing isn't fair, or it doesn't make sense, or I need more time. It can be very hard to, to advocate for yourself. Now, obviously that's partly where we come in, but also, you know, we can't be there 24 hours a day either. Um, and. I think that, like I said, the university as a whole isn't user friendly and I would obviously extend that to neurodivergent students experience and, you know, I've seen students where they've dropped out because they had to do a presentation. They just won't do it and they, the lecturer may have been, you know,

Sinéad: 22:15

Um,

Susan: 22:15

may have been open to offering an alternative, but they just couldn't kind of engage with that. They're like, no, it's just too much. And so that can be a real challenge for some of our students, which, which does affect their mental health as in when something isn't presented again from a universal design point of view. So the lecturer doesn't get up and say, you can do an essay or you can do a presentation. And here's all the details. And you just go, that's grand, I'll do an essay. Away you go. Again, that's where we see universal design can benefit everyone. Um, whereas the scenario really today in most of the Irish universities is that the student has to go and ask. Is there an alternative assignment? And again, going back to, it's very hard for people to advocate for themselves. And if they do, sometimes the lecturer will go, Oh yeah, that's okay. But I'll have to think of something. So they haven't already thought about that.

Sinéad: 23:04

So it's not there and it's making you feel like that. God, I'm being a hindrance.

Susan: 23:09

Exactly.

Sinéad: 23:10

And also as well, their argument, cause I've talked to lecturers with the whole, cause I hate presentations as well. I get really nervous and they'll say things like, well, you know, you'll have to do presentations in the job you're going to be in. You're not teaching me presentation skills. Like there's actually no class for presentation skills.

Susan: 23:29

Exactly.

Sinéad: 23:30

Like I would love to see someone come in, like a drama teacher, and get us all up and teach you how to regulate your body and how to like move around. I don't know because I actually don't know, but I was talking to a friend who does drama and she was great at speaking. And she was like, that's actually, A good idea, but I said the whole argument around you're learning how to do presentations. Actually, I'm learning how to be scared of doing them because I'm not learning. You don't learn a skill, I don't think.

Susan: 23:54

No, you're told to do a presentation, but they generally don't teach you how to do it. So then it's like, well, okay, I'm being forced to do this. I'm not getting any help. Um, I'm absolutely out of my mind with anxiety for the six weeks before it. Can't sleep, can't eat, you know, this kind of thing. And so what kind of a positive experience is that for someone? Obviously not. So I think, again, it goes back to like, what just annoys the average student can be, um, absolutely a mental health stressor for, uh, our neurodivergent students. Absolutely.

Sinéad: 24:29

Definitely. And like, even things like, I used to have cards and stuff and people were like, Be grand, don't be, don't be stressed, you don't need your cards. I literally, like, I wouldn't be able to remember anything as soon as you get up there. It all completely goes, I'm in awe of people that can stand up there. I, I can remember, I literally, I physically shook my whole way through a presentation and I think that's down to, Working memory challenges and stuff like that as well. So, and also not having the skill, I'd love to be able to know the skill. That's basically, you know, and is there any other areas that you have noticed that could be challenging for neurodiverse, neurodivergent students?

Susan: 25:10

Yeah, I mean, for example, the, um, like during COVID, like some of our students loved, um, doing everything online. Some of them hated that, you know, so that was very challenging. And then you do get people. Understandably saying, well, why can't everything be in online? You went online for COVID and why can't it be online?

Sinéad: 25:26

Yeah.

Susan: 25:26

Um, or why do I have to come in every day? You know, it's, I have to travel long distance. It makes me anxious. I can do it all from home or why can't I do it all from home? So, you know, there can be that kind of, um, again, a quality kind of, or social justice aspect, uh, which is a trait that a lot of our neurodivergent, uh, community have. Like that equality and. What you're doing is not fair.

Sinéad: 25:48

It's not fair.

Susan: 25:49

It's not fair.

Sinéad: 25:49

Yeah.

Susan: 25:50

And, and, like, I totally identify with that.

Sinéad: 25:52

Yeah, so do I.

Susan: 25:53

But that can really make it hard to, you know, that, you can get stuck on that. And then, then that can cause problems because you can't move on with an assignment or with a whatever because stuck on this thing. And like, again, I've been there.

Sinéad: 26:06

I feel so seen right now. I'm like, Oh my God, many times I've done that.

Susan: 26:10

Yeah, exactly. So it can be really challenging. So God, I mean, just everything, like I said, the sensory environment, the physical environment, the way teaching is presented, the way assignments are presented, all of that can obviously have an impact on people's mental health. Then, whether they have the ability themselves to ask for help as well.

Sinéad: 26:30

Hmm. Yeah, the self advocacy is a thing, like, the best way I described it was, it's like you're running the gauntlet sometimes, so like, you've got this whole, so first of all, you have to understand what you need yourself. So, you need to understand that, that's a whole, that's a whole part of development. You know, like you need to understand that and then you need to know how to, how to communicate this in a gentle way, you know, so you're not being offensive and then there's the whole like anxiety around before they contact you, email you back, or have I offended them? Are they not going to understand me? Are they going to say something that's going to further shame me? Or is it going to be a really positive experience. I know that when you experience it and it's, it's a stigmatizing one, like it, it's like it really, it's very hurtful, you know, like you could be sick nearly for a week after, a week before, you know, if they haven't emailed you back. But then when you have the people that do respond in a compassionate and understand, you don't even have to be overly empathetic just to be like, OK, I understand. And yeah, I'll give you the reading material early or whatever it is. Or we can work on a compromise or even just have a conversation about it. It kind of pushes you to do it again, you know.

Susan: 27:47

Exactly. So when you have a positive experience, you're more likely to do it in the future. When you have a negative experience, you're like, well, I'm never doing that again.

Sinéad: 27:53

Yeah, that's it. And it's just this, I suppose, I think because of my personality, I'm quite outspoken and I just can't let things go. I have to kind of say them, but not everyone has, has that. They might have one or two bad experiences. And I'm like, they're like, I'm never, ever going to do that again. When I do have a bad experience, I say that to myself, I'll never do it again. But as soon as something happens again, I'm like, God, I have to say it. You know, I have to say it. And it's kind of hard not to speak up. But yeah.

Susan: 28:20

But that's interesting. That's what a lot of our students will say to us. Like a student might come in to me and say, this lecture is really bad for the following reasons. And like, my, my term's just over, but I don't want other people to have the same experience.

Sinéad: 28:33

Yeah.

Susan: 28:34

Do you know, they're very empathetic in that way, in the sense that they're like, I know it can't be changed for me, but. Other people shouldn't have to. Yeah, exactly.

Sinéad: 28:41

I can remember actually feeling, after it reminded me, I kind of felt that way as well. Like the thoughts of someone else that's not able to even speak up for themselves, you know. It's kind of hard, like I can remember, I don't know, it's just, it's just even just the little things, like just being given the reading material earlier, or you know, if there's stuff that's, It's being handed out in class. Just hand it out five minutes before online, you know, like on class and then I can read it before I go in, you know, but I think a lot of it's, they talk about attendance or something. I don't know. Like if people aren't going to go, they're not going to go.

Susan: 29:14

Well, again. Um, I'd encourage them to go back to the research because the research shows that putting stuff up online doesn't affect attendance. Maybe a small amount, a small bit, but

Sinéad: 29:22

not Massively so. Like I'm more than likely to go if I'm prepared.

Susan: 29:26

Well, exactly.

Sinéad: 29:27

So, you know,

Susan: 29:28

like It's like they're gatekeeping it.

Sinéad: 29:30

Yeah. And it's mad because like we're dealing with educated people, you know. So,

Susan: 29:35

yeah, educated in some ways.

Sinéad: 29:38

That's it, that's it. Um, if you were to think of any changes or any ideas that would be beneficial for neurodivergent students and mental health into a level of education, what would they be?

Susan: 29:50

Well, some of them I have touched on as in the reverse of what I said. So like the design could be better. Uh, the teaching could be better, the environment could be better, like more quiet spaces, obviously, things like that, more student friendly spaces, like, um, here in DCU, we've just opened our first quiet room and that's, it's been so popular, you know, we could have 10 more of them. Um, so just like, but again, it's really universal design approach, like what would improve the environment for the most amount of students. So having more seating, having more, um, varied seating. spaces so like noisy spaces and quiet spaces um spaces where you can like are dark or whatever things like that but what I think would help most would be Flexibility. So, um, what I kind of mean by that is like at the moment, for example, a lot of people, they picked the wrong course and it's really hard to change course. And sometimes you don't know until you're in the thick of it, that you're in the wrong course. And again, if you're a neurodivergent, it might take you longer, or you might, like we talked about, like you mightn't be able to advocate for yourself or whatever it is. Right. So if there was more flexibility, like something that I think would be amazing. would be if there was a general like entry option. So you just do like a year of college.

Sinéad: 31:04

Yeah.

Susan: 31:04

You do a few random modules that you pick and you could see, Oh yes, I am going to go into business or I am going to go into science.

Sinéad: 31:12

Like in england, they do the, they do the transition where it's like GCSE kind of thing. How do we like, I don't know what way their levels work, but they pick like tree and they do that. And it's like a specific area.

Susan: 31:22

Yeah. So they've more, they kind of hone in more in that. Exactly. So then you would go to college knowing more and in America it's kind of the same as in they do more of a general and then you can kind of focus more.

Sinéad: 31:33

That's a good idea.

Susan: 31:33

Yeah. And so I, I'd love to see something like that because I think what happens with a lot of our students, especially our neurodivergent students, is they get into a situation where they're like finished first year and you're, and they're like, I hate this course. It's not, but they can't, they'll have to go back and pay to pay for another course, you know, to pay for it or something like that, or in Germany, they have a lot of flexibility, like you can do three modules. And then next year you might do four modules and then another year you might do no modules.

Sinéad: 31:56

That's brilliant.

Susan: 31:57

And it takes them like eight years to finish college, but you could finish in like three years if you wanted to. Or you can spread it out and maybe you're working, maybe you're traveling. So again, I think we don't have that here. It's very rigid here and it's, It doesn't, I actually don't think it suits the majority of students,

Sinéad: 32:14

um,

Susan: 32:15

and especially our neurodivergent students could do with a bit more flexibility. So that if you make a mistake, it's not the end of the world. And you're not like signing your life away to a degree that you hate. And that's really challenging for you. Like, Oh, it's, there's a lot of exams. I didn't realize there was going to be exams. You know, that kind of thing. And now they're like stuck in that course because maybe financially it's difficult or whatever. So those kinds of things I think would be helpful.

Sinéad: 32:40

My daughter actually went to DIFE, you know, like PLC and we are, not that was like, it was her plan what she wanted to do, but obviously I'm the mam I that had to do all the paperwork, all this stuff or whatever. And I said to her, cause I'd went to DIFE, regardless if you get into university, you should do the PLC. There's so much stigma around it. She was like, I'm afraid to tell my friends because people are slagging each other over it. She didn't realize it was a negative thing until people started bullying other people that were going to PLCs. I was like, the people who go straight into university are going to struggle. Like, if you go to a PLC, they teach you how to be in college as well.

Susan: 33:15

Well, they teach you how to write an essay, which they don't really do at third level. And I would love to see more people doing either like that, a PLC, whatever in the area that they're interested in and then see a lot, we do see people come through nursing, but they've done a year of nursing studies, I think, and they know. And then some of them will do the year of nursing studies and be like, Oh no, that's not what I was going to be, you know? So they really have that chance. Or just a gap year as well, you know, or whatever. Like that again, that's for everyone. But I think particularly for people who might be making decisions kind of under pressure or like, you know, not, you know, feeling like they can't go back on something or, you know, where there might be that kind of neurodivergent traits, maybe working against them.

Sinéad: 33:56

Yeah, that's it. And a thing, another thing that I noticed,I think that you know the services that are, that you access when you get into third level education it would nearly be great if they were set up, if you had a month or two beforehand or everything was kind of set up if you could come in and you talk and you get that all set up. And then you're not. Like halfway through your first semester and then eventually you're, because obviously people are busy. It's just kind of like a backlog. But, and also a lot of people kind of like, I don't, I don't need the supports. I don't need the supports. And then eventually you're like, okay, I do need the supports.

Susan: 34:30

Yeah.

Sinéad: 34:30

Or even if you do, like me, think, I knew I needed the supports. I procrastinated because I was looking at stuff in college. So that could be, I don't know what way that would work.

Susan: 34:39

But that's it. Like, that's it. We're, we are happy to talk to people in the summer or whatever before they start college. We're more than happy to do that. And the other thing is like, we still get people, like I'm doing this 12, 13, 14 years and you still get people coming in and final year. I never heard the disability service. I never heard the counseling service. And you're like, what else can we do?

Sinéad: 34:57

Yeah, we're here. We're here.

Susan: 34:59

We're here. Obviously we can promote it more and stuff, but you know, like, I think there is still, it's hard to get through the noise and the emails and the,

Sinéad: 35:07

So let's say if it's a brand new student, they don't have their college email, you don't have access to them. So I wonder if it's like, let's say you, let's say you apply through the DARE and the college that is flagged with the college and then, because the college knows about that, they send a package or something.

Susan: 35:21

Absolutely and Uh, some of the colleges do do it at DARE and a HEAR orientation. So DARE is your disability access route and HEAR is your, it's for disadvantaged students, sorry I can't remember what the acronym stands for.

Sinéad: 35:33

Yeah.

Susan: 35:34

Um, and we do that here in DCU.

Sinéad: 35:36

Oh right, okay.

Susan: 35:36

And some of the other colleges do it too.

Sinéad: 35:38

Yeah.

Susan: 35:39

And it is for people, now it's for people who come through DARE, but also other people it would be open to, but we don't know about those people. We know about the DARE people. And so we invite them in and just exactly for that reason, we get them in, they meet all of us, we show them around campus, you know, we show them the canteen, we show them, you know, and a lot of them meet a friend that day. And so then when they're coming back in three weeks later or whatever, they know someone.

Sinéad: 36:03

And you're not as nervous then, I think, you know, you're familiar.

Susan: 36:05

Some of the rooms. Yeah, you know,

Sinéad: 36:09

that's it.

Susan: 36:09

Makes a big difference.

Sinéad: 36:10

I do this WhatsApp group chat with students with ADHD. It's just girls I know with ADHD. If there's new people that are added into the group, I'm just always like, Have you accessed the supports in your college? It's kind of like when someone has a physical issue, you say, Did you go to your GP? If I hear of someone that's in college, the first thing I'm like, I don't know the situation. Have you accessed the supports? The supports are usually the best thing to do.

Susan: 36:32

The supports are great. In Irish, um, further education and higher education are excellent. Now, I'm not saying every single person has had an excellent experience, but the services are there. The supports are there. They're way better than in other countries. Genuinely. It's for a few different reasons, but partly to do with the way the disability services are funded. The services are there and people need to know that.

Sinéad: 36:52

Yeah.

Susan: 36:53

Just a little rant there, but like, absolutely. If you're someone listening to this, who's an ADHD or who's in college or in a PLC, whatever it is, a diploma. Get in there.

Sinéad: 37:04

Yeah.

Susan: 37:04

And ask for some help.

Sinéad: 37:05

Definitely. Definitely. You're right. That's it for today. We're running out of time now. I wish we could talk for longer, but thanks for chatting with me today.

Susan: 37:12

Maybe I'll talk to you again.

Sinéad: 37:14

Yes. Yes, definitely. Definitely. That's it for today. Thanks so much for taking the time to listen. And if you relate to today's topic, please do text Email or message me on Instagram so I can share your opinions with the rest of my listeners. Or maybe you have a new topic in mind and you're interested in coming on the show. All the contact details will be listed on today's podcast episode.

Health and Society

Neurodiversity in Third Level Education

Listen to this podcast on